Brokekid.net

I posted this question on Ask Metafilter a week ago. It turned into a pretty good thread.

I was in an argument this morning with co-workers over whether or not another co-worker should buy a Mac Mini or a Dell. Of course none of them had ever used a Mac so they weren’t convinced by any of my arguments. My co-worker has the monitor, keyboard, printer, digital camera and an iPod, but no CPU. She wants to do fun stuff with her pictures of her grandkids and send them on DVD among other things. I think the Mac Mini is the perfect computer for her situation.

The argument against the Mac was that my co-worker can do the same thing on a PC but cheaper and that she’s used to a PC and it would be hard for her to use the Mac. I’m looking for THE winning argument in an entirely subjective question. Any ideas?

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Well, honestly, it looks like your coworker has the winning argument. The Dell does what she needs it to, and is cheaper. Just because it is a Mac doesn’t make it better for her.

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No need for virus protection, ease of use, nice form factor, OSX kicks Windows ass, iPhoto, etc.

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If she doesn’t like it, you’ll buy it from her for what she paid, plus $200.

How quiet are Minis? If reeeeelly quiet, that plus the form factor would mean a lot to me. But I’m not her.

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The only way to win an argument like that is to demonstrate that the Mac will be easier and more fun to use (assuming that is indeed the case). Barring that, you’d need a testimonial from someone she identifies strongly with attesting to how easy and fun it is to use. You apparently aren’t that person.

At one point, I thought Apple had a promotion on the Mini that allowed a liberal return policy so that people felt like they weren’t taking much risk by trying it, but they certainly don’t seem to have anything like that now.

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iPhoto, etc.

I’d never use iPhoto in an argument to convince somebody to buy a Mac. That’s like saying you should use a PC because of Internet Explorer. Neither piece of software is particularly good, and not a compelling reason to choose a platform.

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The argument that you don’t need virus protection for Macs is quickly fading, and the more popular they get the more it will fade because more people will write viruses (virii?) for them.

Look – I grew up on Apple stuff. Apple ][, Apple ][e, Apple ][gs, Mac Classic, Mac 2ci, you name it.

At the end of the argument, however, there remain a few key facts:
- PCs are cheaper and/or provide more horsepower for the same amount of money
- Windows XP, while it has its flaws, is such a vast improvement over Win95, Win98 and even Win2000 that it's really no longer the hulking crashing pile of crap the old windows were.
- The only advantage a Mac provides is if you happen to like OSX so much more than XP that it's worth the money. As far as compatible software, Windows wins. As far as ease of use - it's pretty much a wash at this point.

I think Macs can be damn cool sometimes, but the fact that you want to "win this argument" is the very reason I still dislike Apple "culture". It's like trying to "win an argument" that coke is better than pepsi -- only you need to add on that the coke in this argument costs 20% more for the same amount of drink.

The argument you want to win should be "what is best for my coworker given his/her meager needs", not "how can I get my coworker to get an Apple".

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Well, everything she needs to deal with her current crop of peripherals already comes with the Mac. I didn't see anything like iPhoto or iTunes (or any of the iLife apps) with my last Windows XP install.

It's not like learning a new language. In fact, most people find it quite easy. I had a contract at a large biotech firm that moved their field sales force off of Windows and onto Mac OS X. The response was overwhelmingly positive. The few stubborn users were the old hens that couldn't bear to tear themselves away from Outlook. Otherwise, people really liked it, and the virus problem was nearly eliminated.

There are *lots* of books out there to help Windows users move over to the Mac. And there are the Apple Stores. Just try getting that from Dell. You're near DC, i see. Several Apple Stores in the metro area. It's worth a trip.

I own a Mini and I love it. My XP box sits powered off now. Dealing with photos & burning DVDs on a Mac is something that I have always found to be MUCH easier.

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When I visit non-computer-saavy friends and family, I spend a good portion of my visit cleaning up their adware and virus encrusted PCs which have become bogged down to a nearly unusable state.

I have 4 friends with Macs. They know no more about adware or viruses than the rest, yet I've never had to tune up a single thing on their computers.

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And a more constructive response: the most convincing argument for a Mac can be made by actually allowing a person to use one. If you have a Mac Mini, bring it in. If you know a friend who has one, borrow it. Several Mac skeptics have used my Machines in the past and come away impressed. Two have actually switched. The others are much less negative than they once were. Allow your friend to test-drive to see if it’s right for her. And stress the no-virus no-adware no-spyware stuff, especially if she’s had problems with it before. When people ask me why I switched from PC to Mac (I do consulting for PC networks, after all), I say it’s because the Mac just works. I don’t have to fuck with it. Ever. It just works.

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The only way to determine that it will work better for her is for her to get her hands on one and try it. You can perhaps convince her to try it but you can’t (and shouln’t try to) make the sale without the Machine present. I’d tell her (but just once) that you think that if she tried it, she’d be convinced, and it would be a shame if she made her decision without trying it. But there’s no predicting what people will like so she shouldn’t buy a Mac if she’s never tried one out before.

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1. Unix (get the IT guy in the room)
2. No viruses, maybe one
3. No need to install a bunch of “optimization’” crap just to keep Windows hobbled together in 8 months, trying to avoid reinstalling XP.
4. Pentium 4 is a joke

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Learning to use the Mac takes about 10 minutes. Untraining yourself from the stupid places Microsoft puts things takes more time.

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My Mac Mini is silent — it makes a little noise when burning a CD but not near the racket a Dell does. My guess is the new Intel Mac Minis might have some fan noise. But still not the same sounds the DC-3 engine Dell uses to cool its system.

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iPhoto is not perfect, but you just plug in your camera, it grabs the photos, you can then email or view them onscreen or put them on the interweb. No stupid drivers. Picassa from Google comes close, but it doesn’t “just work.”

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Your winning argument will have to be about the Mac experience. Any computer can do the same thing as another computer with the right software, and one is always going to be cheaper (and not a Mac), but the Mac platform is about the experience as much as it is the end result.

The iLife suite in particular, while flawed (like all software), has one thing perfect: integration. From iDVD, you can pick songs and photos from your iTunes and iPhoto libraries seamlessly, and organized just how they are in their respective apps. Same with the new Front Row media center app.

You’re not going to win any arguments about price and ability, but working playing on a Mac is just plain fun.

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What about the spyware issue? Lots and lots of windows boxes become totaly infested with spyware, something that is not as big of a problem on the PC.

How good are the windows anti-spyware tools these days? Are they good enough to keep a n00bs Machine safe?

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It’s like trying to “win an argument” that coke is better than pepsi — only you need to add on that the coke in this argument costs 20% more for the same amount of drink.

I find this analogy superb, because it highlights the fact that, with computers, there is a purpose beyond just staring at the can after you’ve taken a swig and …

… AAAAAAHHHH, that’s good computer.

So to the OP: Sell those aesthetics. Sell ‘em, boyo.

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What’s the Windows equivalent of iMovie/iDVD if I want to make a quick DVD slideshow of pictures? That sounds like one of her requirements. I’d see what her other requirements are and what she’s bringing to the table outside of hardware.

My parents had a dialup account until recently (yesterday, actually) and they’d hit a snag every few weeks when either the Mac or PC would need to download an update. Falling behind on Windows Update can make your PC a liability fairly quickly while it’s less of an issue on the Mac for the time being — especially if you don’t have web sharing or remote login enabled.

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This one is easy:

Does she have a computer support person, or can she do it herself?

If no to both, her Dell will be a doorstop in a year or two, infected with viruses and spyware and a fragmented hard drive and a bloated registry. All of that is fixable, but she won’t know how to do it, and odds are she won’t. She’ll just have a PC that sucks and gets suckier by the day.

If she buys a Mac, it will be chugging along just fine, like the day she bought it, in a year or two.

That, and take her down to the Apple store and show her a Mac.

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What’s the Windows equivalent of iMovie/iDVD

There are many. MS offers freebies like Windows Movie Maker or Powerpoint Producer, which lets you make synch’d movies from Powerpoint and is scary monstrously alluring for every person over 50 in the world as far as I can see.

Beyond that there are so many PC programs for doing DVD/photo/movie slideshows and conversions it’s sometimes bewildering, especially if you come from the Mac world are are used to little or no choice. Nero and Sonic are pretty good, with simple UIs.

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First, generic handwaving expostulation:

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Windows is functional and cheaper, but ugly, and the PCs it runs on are usually pretty noisy.

The Mini is tiny and silent. It should run as fast or faster as most PCs for most things short of games, and remain whisper-quiet doing so. (The Mini’s onboard video is rather weak… not at all a good gaming Machine.)

In the Windows world, different companies make the OS and the hardware, and the integration work isn’t that great. If you have a problem, Dell can help you a little bit, but if it’s not a provable hardware problem, you’re on your own.

Apple is a single vendor that controls both the hardware and the operating system, so they can polish things to a high sheen, and can offer truly excellent support. I believe it’s paid support past the first 90 days or so, but having a known source of high-quality support is a big plus for non-techies… even if they have to get out the credit card, at least they know who to call.

The G4 Mini is really a little gem of a Machine. It’s like that old saw about how to carve an elephant… start with a big block of stone, and remove everything that doesn’t look like an elephant. Apple did that with the G4, and presumably with the Intel Mini…. they provide exactly enough computer to do most things that any normal person would want. Even better, the Intel Mini has fairly serious horsepower under the hood. It’s not at all the weak sister, relatively speaking, that the G4 Mini was.

And it most emphatically does not look like an elephant.
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Now, actual practical advice:

Choose the software first, and then buy the hardware that runs it. Really, that’s what it comes down to. She should sit down on both Machine types and actually try to do whatever it is she wants to do. Then she should buy whichever one she likes better.

If she’s willing to spend a little time researching her purchase, she will likely be happy with the result for years and years… whichever Machine she chooses.

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I’m not arguing one position

The Mac Mini isn’t super slow. The latest Mac Mini, released just yesterday is probably in the same ballpark as the low end Dells.

As for them being “super expensive,” The Mac Mini will probably be $150 more than a similarly spec’d dell though the dell will come with a 15″ flat panel; of course, since she already has a monitor, it’s hard to figure out how to value a display you are forced to purchase. $150 is certainly a significant chunk of the cost of a $600 system, and it’s nothing to sneeze at, but for someone who values their time and just wants to get something done, it needn’t be decisive.

The presence of a greater choice of programs for the Windows Machine doesn’t matter at all if she doesn’t need any of those programs. If she does, a huge variety of choices isn’t necessarily an asset because finding the right one of the many can take a lot of time and effort. Having one or two “good enough” choices is often just that, good enough.

I don’t really see why an end user should care what CPU is in their system, whether its a PowerPC, a Core Duo, Pentium 4 or Athlon64. What matters is “does this thing do what I want to do fast enough to keep me happy.” Processor only matters if its not fast enough. For an individual user, performance/watt only matters if you’ve got a notebook (which we aren’t talking about here), if a hotter-running processor can’t be coupled with a sufficiently quiet cooling solution in your price range, or if you have a thing for fetishizing specs that generally only matter in a larger context.

Similarly, UNIX isn’t likely to be a big selling point for most users, and if you pull in the IT guy to help make your argument in this regard, its likely to backfire due to the high penetration of windows at the types of organizations that are actually likely to employ an IT guy.

In the end, I think the best way to make your argument is to find a way for her to actually experience a Mac Mini. Aesthetics matter but she needs to decide for herself how much the feel of using a Mac and iLife is worth to her.
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The #1 reason to buy a Mac is because they look nice.
The #1 reason to buy a Mac is because you want to spend more time using your computer than you do maintaining it. The #2 reason to buy a Mac is because they look nice much better than PCs.

The Mac Mini your friend gets will be faster than a cheap Dell, capable of doing all of the same things, in a simpler, more intuitive way, and more besides.

If I were buying a Mini, and I didn’t want to use it as a media center (ie. plugged into the TV in my lounge), I’d find a retailer selling the PowerPC versions on the cheap in the next few weeks, now that the Intel ones are out.

I was a PC power user, until my Dad gave me his old Mac. I forced myself to try it, for one month. I turned off my PC, and tried to do everything that I already knew how to do on the Mac. Once I’d figured out how to, I realized that it was only my ignorance and stubbornness that had been holding me back, and I’ve been much better off since.

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The argument that you don’t need virus protection for Macs is quickly fading, and the more popular they get the more it will fade because more people will write viruses (virii?) for them.

The first part of this is just not true.

There has never been a virus for OS X. Various stories have come out saying that there are, but it always turns out to be a simple script, not a virus. Look, here’s a virus: open up Terminal and type

rm *.*

Got you now, Mac fanboys!

And the second part, the argument that there aren’t viruses for Mac because so few people use Macs is utterly faulty logic. Millions of people use Linux, but guess what? No viruses.

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I don’t know that Apple hardware is overpriced these days. Trying to spec out a similar system to the Core Duo Mini at dell puts me at $770s (Dimension E310 w 3.2 Gig P4, 512MB memory) and I’m not even looking at WiFi.

But I don’t see the point in encouraging people to switch if they don’t want to switch.

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Having said that, and I’m a loyal Mac user who’d hate to use a PC for anything, if you colleague is experienced with Windows, then she should stick with Windows. Why not? Otherwise she’ll just be learning a new OS instead of doing what she wants to do.

This is predicated on the idea that there is reasonably priced user-friendly software available to do the things she wants to do on the Dell.

And, if she’s got someone close at hand who can help her transition to Mac, as in someone in her family, then maybe she should make the transition.

The only way to do a real comparison would be to lend her a Mac for a week. She already knows Windows, so, lend her a Mac and see how she gets on.

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3. No need to install a bunch of “optimization’” crap just to keep Windows hobbled together in 8 months, trying to avoid reinstalling XP.

I’ve had the same computer running XP since Nov. 2002 and have never had to reinstall it (HP Media Center or something like that. For the most part, I don’t know anyone else that has had to reinstall XP.

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I would just let her try some of the applications that come with a Mac Mini and see if she likes it, if she doesn’t so be it.

For myself, I own two PCs, but since going back to school I’ve been in a world of constant Mac use (Video and Art program). There are certain things that are really nice about Macs. There are certain things that are incredibly amazingly dumb about Macs. For her, it seems the dealbreaker is price.

Try to find some way that having a Mac would be cheaper. I was going to say software, but odds are, if she’s getting a dell, she’s going to get some decent free software and free pc software seems much easier to come by.

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This thread makes me think about my mother. She’s spent the last five to ten years learning what she needs and wants to do on Windows. She’s perfectly capable at this point of doing almost everything in her range.

That said, she’d be lost if we tried switching her to a Mac, even if it is quote-unquote easier to use. The new OS would negate the fact that some programs might be easier to use.

The fact is, Windows doesn’t crash as much as it used to. XP is great. Microsoft Anti-Spyware has kept my computer pretty much spotless since I installed it. Picasa will take care of all anyone’s photo needs.

If she doesn’t have someone in the house who can help her learn to use a Mac and answer her questions when she has them, I’d say stick with PCs.

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Target. Disk. Mode.

That is the greatest advantage a Mac has over PCs. The capability of being able to turn your Machine into an external firewire drive is immeasurable when it comes to troubleshooting or easy file transfers (between Macs).

If you ever accidentally delete a system file and your Machine won’t boot. No worries. Start it up while holding down the “T” key and use a Firewire cable to connect to someone else’s Mac. Now transfer that file from the other Mac to your Mini and reboot your Mini. Disaster averted.

But here’s where Target Disk mode shines:

Last month I brought home a G4 tower with no wireless card. I set it up my living room since that is where the tower will stay. However, my wireless router was in another room and I didn’t have an ethernet cable long enough to connect the tower to the router. No problem. I booted the tower into Target Disk Mode and connected it to my Powerbook. I booted the Powerbook while holding the option button and selected the tower’s hard drive to boot. The Powerbook boots but I see all my files and applications of the tower. However I can now use the Powerbook’s built in wireless to get the latest software updates on to my tower. Awesome. Eventually I bought a long enough cable. But in a pinch, Target Disk Mode saved the day.

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Change is good. It keeps us smart.
2) You get to lord it over windows users.
3) You get to lord it over Mac users. (“Yeah – I got a Mac, and I still prefer windows”)
4) It looks pretty.

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Here’s another question: Is she planning on upgrading any time in the future? A Dell is significantly cheaper to upgrade than a Mac Mini.

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Microsoft kills babies.
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Sorry, should also mention that Dell’s technical support is abysmal (people who barely speak English telling you to reinstall Windows as a solution for every problem does not equal tech support, IMHO), while Tekserve is always helpful, and if they have problem with their Mac, they can always call YOU to fix it…right? right?